Ep 88: Basic Tactics for All Responders
Episode 88
Published Jul 8, 2024
Last updated Feb 18, 2026
Duration: 35:40
Episode Summary
Every street cop, firefighter, EMT, and paramedic needs to know basic tactics for operating in a tactical environment.
Episode Notes
During an Active Shooter Event, you might find yourself in an unfamiliar location or working with agencies and officers you don’t know. In today’s episode, our panel discusses some of the basic knowledge needed for Tactical, Triage, and Transport to work together to ensure decisions are made correctly, quickly, and accurately.
View this episode on YouTube at https://youtu.be/ijdZKgunXcM
Transcript
Bill Godfrey:Whether you're a patrol officer, firefighter or paramedic, doesn't matter, responding to an active shooter event, there's some basic tactics you need to know to keep yourself and your team safe. That's today's topic. Stick around.
Welcome to the Active Shooter Incident Management Podcast. My name is Bill Godfrey, your podcast host. We're here at the National Center for Integrated Emergency Response. Back in the studio with me, Pete Kelting from our law enforcement side, one of our incident instructors. Pete, good to have you back.
Pete Kelting:
Thanks Bill. Pleasure to be here.
Bill Godfrey:
And the inimitable and comedian Billy Perry in the house. Billy, good to have you back.
Billy Perry:
Hey, thanks for having me, Bill.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah, absolutely. So today's topic, basic tactics. Now both of you did years in SWAT, I'm not even really sure how many, but decades of experience on the SWAT side, tactics side, both coming up as part of the teams, being team leaders, doing the team training, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So what I'm looking for is you guys to provide that experiential set boiled down to the basic stuff that every street cop and every firefighter and every EMT and paramedic should know about operating in the tactical environment.
And let me set this up a little bit with a couple of stories about why I wanted to do this particular topic. So first and foremost, it became readily apparent to me that just because you're a police officer, you may not really know a whole lot about tactics. So that was a realization I had. And then I went to some training and I remember trying to take care of a patient that had been shot in the middle of a intersection hallway that had like four doors on one hallway and five doors on the other hallway and being told to get off the X. And as I was trying to take care of my patient, I'm thinking to myself, what's the X? And it was explained to me later.
And then the idea of this really cool name thing called bounding overwatch, which was basically, you cover while I move and then I stop and cover why you move. But I didn't know that at the time. And all of that coupled up with the recent study that came out that showed us and told us in active shooter events, the place where responders are most commonly getting shot is on the exterior, usually on the approach, not on the interior, not doing room entries. I mean that did happen a few times, but it was a very small number compared to more than 50%, more than half of the time people were being shot on the exterior.
So that's kind of why I want to talk about this. Now remember as we go through this, obviously this is both an audio and a video podcast, but we need to be illustrative in our language about what we want people to do and how they can solve this problem. So where does this start? Does it start as you're approaching the scene? Billy, lead us off.
Billy Perry:
I think it starts with understanding the cover, understanding what cover is. And I believe in the ABCDS of cover, A-B-C-D-S, A-B-C-D-S. A is accurate fire. If I'm delivering really accurate fire like shooting you in the manubrium, which is the top bone of your sternum and it alters you structurally, you rapidly lose interest in shooting at me. Okay. Not only do you have trouble holding your arms, you're like, what was I doing? I need to work on this burning sensation deep in my core. Okay.
And I think A is accurate fire. B is ballistic panels. Ballistic panels provide pretty good cover. C is cover. The number three thing is actual cover. And the reason being is because with the exception of water, most cover is temporary. It goes away and it's really concealment. D is distance. Distance is actually cover. So these are especially good for your police, I mean your fire and EMT personnel, stay distant.
And speed, S is speed. If you move rapidly, that's cover. And so like for the bounding overwatch, which you were talking about, if you're bounding, if Pete and I are bounding, I'm going...
Bill Godfrey:
Now, now wait a minute. Sorry. You're bounding. That means you are the one moving or you're the one covering?
Billy Perry:
Well, either one. I mean if we're doing.
Bill Godfrey:
You're working together.
Billy Perry:
We're doing a bounding movement.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay. So describe that.
Billy Perry:
Okay, for what we do in our agency, if I'm gonna be covering, I will put a muzzle at the target and I will yell to Pete, I don't have to look at him and I will yell "set," and he will say "moving," and I will say "move." And then I don't look at Pete, I'm looking at where the bad guy is, where the shots are coming from. And Pete does not run trying to point a gun at it, which is taking away from his S component
Bill Godfrey:
Speed.
Billy Perry:
Right. He is running like the way he was made, pumping his arms weapon in hand. And he gets to where he is getting and then he has a target in mind, tree, car, corner of a building, whatever. He gets set up. And once he's set up and he has a muzzle on it, he yells, "set," then I say "moving" and he says, "move." And then I get up and I run like an Olympian, not trying to point a gun while I'm running, 'cause you can't shoot while you're doing that. So I move and I close the distance as quickly as I can. And that's what we do.
And that's all bounding overwatch is. Is it provides a rock steady platform to cover someone. And when you do move, you don't move in front of the muzzle of your counterpart. That's just rude.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay, Pete, pick it up from there. So we're talking about how we want to look at the exterior and again, I wanna make sure that we're hitting this both from the law enforcement side and the fire, EMS side. So presumably the first couple of law enforcement officers that are coming up on the approach, how far do you want them to stop in their vehicle and dismount, how close do we get in the vehicle and what's the reasons for that?
Pete Kelting:
A couple things to address there. I wanted to touch on one thing that Billy said was the difference between cover and concealment and how that, you know, dissipates quickly or misinterpreted, which leads right into what you're talking about is how close do you get to the call when you're responding? You know, obviously you hope that the responding officers there have a pretty good understanding of their geographical setup already from just work in the area. But you find yourself sometimes responding to an area that you're not that familiar with and you're trying to deal with quickly looking at a Google map or you know, some type of reference to figure out how close you want to get, you know, or how far you wanna park away to get into the event.
I think one of the things that we tend to lose track of is that I think it's nature for us to think unless really absolutely told, that the threats on an inside portion of a structure and that we tend to blur right past that approach. And you look at a lot of, you know, just go online, look at a lot of these, you know, body cam footage of officers getting outta their cars and going towards that event. They're totally not even worried about taking proper cover or doing a bounding overwatch movement towards the building, and that's where the vulnerability comes.
So it's important to one, train individually in your mind how you would approach an event, a call, location. And then look to see, am I approaching that with somebody else? We talk about solo officer entry too. I mean bounding overwatch has to be with two officers.
Bill Godfrey:
I was just gonna ask you that. But that if you're the first officer on scene and doing a solo entry.
Pete Kelting:
You, you gotta really look at your hardcover versus concealment, right? And look at speed.
Billy Perry:
Speed. Speed.
Pete Kelting:
Right.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay. So concealment, a bush I hide behind.
Billy Perry:
They can shoot through it every time.
Bill Godfrey:
They can shoot through it. They may not be able to see me.
Billy Perry:
They may not be able to see you, but...
Bill Godfrey:
That's concealment.
Billy Perry:
That's concealment.
Pete Kelting:
Right.
Bill Godfrey:
Cover would be?
Billy Perry:
Concealment stops line of sight, it does not stop gunfire.
Bill Godfrey:
Cover would be something that's gonna stop the gunfire.
Pete Kelting:
Hopefully.
Bill Godfrey:
A thick block wall?
Billy Perry:
At least for a bit.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay. Alright.
Billy Perry:
The only cover that's not temporary is water. But you can't get under a pond for three feet and stay there very long.
Bill Godfrey:
I used to be able to, then I got old.
Billy Perry:
Correct.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. Okay. So we're on the approach now let's tangent over 'cause we're talking about the exterior. Let's tangent over and talk about the rescue task force. So typical minimum size of a rescue task force is usually gonna be two and two, two officers and two fire and EMS personnel. Do you still do the bounding overwatch with, or bounding movements? I don't want to use terms that I don't fully understand. Do you still split the team and do bounding movements with that team so that you have an officer and a medic over here that's covering and then a officer and a medic that are moving and then stop and set and cover. What does that look like for the RTF?
Billy Perry:
I personally wouldn't. I would get a distance spacing between the four of us and I would rely on S 'cause you've already got contact teams inside. If you've got RTS, I've already got contact teams inside. I wanna get medical help in there as quickly as possible. 'Cause again, I'm playing the probabilities not the possibilities.
Bill Godfrey:
Well that's really interesting. Pete, what's your thoughts on that?
Pete Kelting:
Bounding overwatch to me usually is for most of the first responding officers. And we start talking at the point where we're moving in RTFs, I think, you know, the speed of moving that RTF through the area that you're trying to get them to, because we think maybe even though it's a warm zone, there may be potential to go hot depending on the weapon being used by the bad actor, a rifle versus a handgun type of thing. You know, we want to be able to move in as a group. And again, the officers that are training in RTFs as they're moving, they should be identifying those quick movements to cover as they go. And then what is your immediate exit escape safe plan? Where are you hunkering down with the team? Where's that hard cover behind a vehicle? It's almost like defensive driving, right? Always having your out. What's, you know, your ability to protect that team moving forward.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay, so this is really kind of an interesting conversation to me. Does that change the math then on where the RTF brings their vehicle? Does the RTF then drive up closer than the initial units who may have, you know, parked a little distance away?
Billy Perry:
Well, I would, as an initial unit, personally, and I like to hear Pete's take on this, I'm gonna get as close as I can.
Bill Godfrey:
In your vehicle?
Billy Perry:
In my vehicle, because even when I was in really good shape and younger, even when I could run a long ways if I didn't have to, I'm not going to, I'm gonna save myself to do there. And if, if there's still something going inside, like one of the things that we do is we teach breaching in our active shooters. One of the most effective breaching tools you have is the front end of your car. It has the right of way and it will make entry even into an outward opening door. And so I'll park it in the foyer and then make entry.
And the other thing that I hasten to add, and this is so counterintuitive to so much of law enforcement and tactics do change. If they didn't, we'd still be shoving 54 caliber balls down the muzzle of rifles and lining up in echelons. Now first volley, we don't do Napoleonic warfare anymore. And one of the things that this is so counterintuitive, if you're being shot at as an officer in an active shooter incident, that's not bad.
Bill Godfrey:
Because they're not shooting.
Billy Perry:
They're not shooting innocents.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay.
Billy Perry:
So in the benefit/hurt category.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah.
Billy Perry:
You know, the innocents and the hostages are in the benefit category.
Bill Godfrey:
On the safety priority matrix. So I don't wanna lose track of the vehicle for the initial arriving officer and Pete, I would be interested in hearing your perspective. And the reason I seem a little bit surprised by this is some training that I went through not that long ago, suggested that you should move on foot from a much larger distance. And it never made sense to me. And it was a cop thing and I was kind of, that wasn't my block, but I was watching it and I thought, I don't really understand why, but I didn't want to interrupt, disrupt to ask the question. because it seemed to me like speed, I'm gonna get across the parking lot faster in a vehicle.
Billy Perry:
A lot.
Bill Godfrey:
And I never really understood that. So Pete, you know, what was your school of thought on this one? And I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer, but...
Pete Kelting:
I mean there's so many variables in play there. I mean obviously what Billy said, I agree with him, you know, your risk versus reward of getting as close as you can in your vehicle is one, you don't have as far a distance to travel once you get outta your vehicle. But two, you're bringing hardcover with you wherever you go. So if you're in an open area, you're coming down a country driveway and the house or you know, the building is way off in the distance and nothing between you and there is farmland. I mean there's so many different variables to it.
I think the point that we have to look at is that the responding officer considers that outside of the building or the, you know, the area they're responding into is just as dangerous as making entry through the door through the threshold into where they think that's the most violent encounter. Because you know, we've seen it just recently, excuse me, you know, the ambush on the officer trying to provide, you know, medical help, the firemen that was ambushed, I think, several months back responding. So it's not just law enforcement responding, it's fire responding too, trying to find an area to stage close enough to be supportive to the event.
But so it's really risk/reward. Know your area. If you know your area, visualize how you're gonna respond to places like that. And again, try to practice and train as much as you can to make the best decision.
Bill Godfrey:
And I would guess it also very much depends on where the threat is and the nature of it. I'm reminded of the Sikh temple shooting. The shooter was in the parking lot. The first officer, through the driveway, took rounds through the front windshield and you know, got shot up pretty bad right on the initial encounter. That guy had a long gun, was in the parking lot and it was not a very long shot between him, you know, and the incoming officer.
Billy Perry:
Right.
Bill Godfrey:
But wouldn't that have been the same outcome whether the guy came in his car or came on foot?
Billy Perry:
Well, yes, and one of the things with the car is, I'm not so worried about, like Pete said too, is I'm not so worried about the cover as I am the speed. Because I'm a firm believer that cars are tombs, they're not wombs. However, they're fast. They're faster than any of us. And I can get up there faster, I can close the distance faster. And I can get behind an axle. I can get behind an engine block if I have to. But again, I'm gonna rely on speed and A, accurate fire and speed to get up there with a car.
Bill Godfrey:
Alright, fair enough. We've made it up to the front door, we're ready to go in. Now we're gonna be working hallways, potentially bypassing doors, moving to, in the case of contact teams, you're driving force moving to?
Billy Perry:
Actionable intelligence.
Bill Godfrey:
The threat.
Billy Perry:
Stimulus.
Bill Godfrey:
Stimulus, sound, gun fire, whatever the case may be. And in the RTFs you're gonna have, we would hope, a location that you're moving to. What are the kinds of basic skills that you would like to see every cop, every firefighter, every paramedic have or the knowledge for moving in hallways through doors?
Billy Perry:
Every hallway is a long skinny room. That's it. It's a long skinny room. Every room is either corner fed or center fed.
Bill Godfrey:
Explain what you mean by that.
Billy Perry:
The doorway, the entryway is either in the corner of the main room or it's in the center of a wall of the main room. And when you, what we call roll the door, when you approach from whatever angle and you work off of a threshold from side to side, you clear. For a center fed room, you clear 90% of the room from the outside of the room. And for a corner fed room you clear 95% of the room from the outside.
And there are three places you can get in a gunfight in a room or outside of the room. That's the best. In the doorway - that's the worst. And simply because you can't move. And number three, inside the room, which that's the second best, 'cause I can move and I can bring a friend, I can bring Pete with me.
And like we've gone away, we don't call it the fatal funnel anymore. If it is fatal, it's fatal 'cause I'm in it. You know, we're not worried about, you know, being obstructed in there. 'Cause if we're moving in there and our muzzles in there, our muzzle is right and we are gonna win. That's the way we look at it.
But the best places outside the room, 'cause we can move together with ease. We can go shoulder to shoulder, we can burn 'em down and look at each other and go, that was amazing. And then do everything from outside. Inside the room is, like I said, I mean inside the doorway is the worst, and in inside the room is the second best. So we can both make entry and do that.
Bill Godfrey:
So what I take away from that, Pete, and I wanna get your take on this, is on the fire, EMS side, don't stand in the damn doorway.
Billy Perry:
Nope.
Bill Godfrey:
Either in the room or outta the room. Commit. And I remember this 'cause I got shoved through a doorway pretty hard. Being through the doorway doesn't mean just being out of the door threshold and being a foot on the inside of the door. Get in or get out and be clear of the door. Don't block the egress.
Billy Perry:
Right.
Bill Godfrey:
So just like we complain about how cops park and block the roadway for our ambulances and our fire trucks, I got the funny distinct impression from the very large officers that I was doing this training with, that they felt the same way about firefighters blocking their doorway. And so that was kind of my takeaway on that is there's some degree of safety in the hallway. There's a degree of safety in the room. Standing in between the two, not a good place to be a good place.
Billy Perry:
Yeah. And with me, with an RTF, I'm gonna take a room and I'm gonna have you in it. I'm gonna have you inside the room.
Bill Godfrey:
So we'll talk about that in just a second. We locked out. So Pete, what about you? Hallways, doors, entries.
Pete Kelting:
So I think, I mean, Billy covered it pretty in depth there. You know, I look at, you know, easily threat, unknown threat, hard corners. But I'm gonna back up a second and add to what really makes it successful is a means of communication, right? Is if we don't communicate well during a lot of these tactics, it can go sideways quick. If Billy's expecting me to come in the door with him and we haven't communicated up very well and he goes in by himself and I'm still standing out in the hallway going, what'd you do? You know, or if we're dealing with other jurisdictional officers, we're dealing with fire folks on the RTFs that we learn to tactically communicate. We train and prepare to tactically communicate to execute what he just covered. So communication is huge in my part.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay. So before we talk about working in the room and posting up, talk about some do's and don'ts in the hallways. Now you mentioned hallways, basically just long skinny room, but if it's got, you know, a bunch of doors, a bunch of offices or school rooms or whatever on this hallway, or it's got crossing intersections, what are the do's and don'ts about that that every street cop, every firefighter, every EMT needs to know?
Billy Perry:
Minimize your exposure, know how to roll a door with two people. The role of number two is to come up and provide the cover for the guy rolling the door. It's hard to explain, but it's pretty simple if you look it up on YouTube. There's some good videos on it.
Bill Godfrey:
Now when you say rolling the door, can you describe that a little bit better for me?
Billy Perry:
Yeah, like I was showing, if you're approaching the door here, and if this is the doorway, if I'm approaching here, I clear off of this threshold, I'm gonna put my head down, I'm gonna look as far across the room as I can and then I'm gonna roll around.
Bill Godfrey:
Gotcha.
Billy Perry:
Literally.
Bill Godfrey:
So sometimes what some people call pieing the door, pieing the room.
Billy Perry:
Right, slicing the door.
Pete Kelting:
Threshold assessment.
Bill Godfrey:
So basically what you're saying is you're gonna start from off to the side of the door and then begin working in a circular, sweeping motion.
Billy Perry:
Right. And I wanna piggyback on what Pete just said, 'cause that is the correct nomenclature, is the threshold assessment. Now where people fall victim to this, and I don't know if your agency does, but when I trained ours, they're just assessing the threshold. You're using the threshold as the break, but you're looking as deep as you can for threats. And this is where, it is 2024, we are 25% of the way through the 21st century. If you're still running mid 20th century and early 20th century platforms, you don't have the internet. You need an optic and a light on every platform. Off pedestal now.
Pete Kelting:
Got off the X on that one.
Bill Godfrey:
Alright, got it. So we're in the hallways. You're we're doing the threshold evaluation on doors. So that's one thing. What are the other things to minimize, you said minimize your exposure in the hallway.
Billy Perry:
You were talking about the weird hallways that have opposing doors and intersections and all that.
Bill Godfrey:
Yes.
Billy Perry:
They all do. Like I don't know, I'm sure Pete did, 'cause he's been doing this even longer than me. But every time you get a new training venue, you're like, man, this one's a real challenge. Then you get another one, you're like, man, this one's a real challenge. Is that not exactly?
Pete Kelting:
Absolutely. And it goes back to, I think one of our earlier podcast, is how much training is the first responding officer getting and how many iterations can they practice? Because what Billy's talking about is is if you're not confident, you wanna keep the momentum moving, right? We're chasing the threat. If we're not comfortable in our clearing mechanisms and our clearing procedures, we're gonna paralyze ourself. Or if we're not used to training with somebody or you know, look at San Bernardino, you had four different agencies at the, you know, the front door to that building when they went in. It's being confident in how to quickly move, quickly assess, chase the threat and move into what you need to put yourself in a good position to take that threat down.
Bill Godfrey:
Okay. And let me just talk briefly about the hallway intersections and how it was explained to me. And then you guys correct me if I've got this wrong.
So basically, if I'm trying to work on an injured patient that's down in the middle of a hallway intersection, an X crossing, hallway enters are a plus sign crossing, hallway intersection. I'm exposed to gunfire from four different angles. If I grab that patient and move them into one of the hallways, I've now reduced my exposure from four to two. I've cut it in half, I can be shot from the left or the right. If that patient is then drug into a room that we control, I've now reduced my exposure to the doorway to that hallway and cut my exposure again.
And so the idea was that it's being tactically aware also has to do with the geographical layout of the building. And if you don't think about it in terms of the openings and how just a simple five foot, six foot movement of you and your patient, you can leave yourself unnecessarily exposed. That was how it was kind of communicated to me.
Billy Perry:
Yes. However, one of the areas of exposure that you had was the room that you drug 'em into.
Bill Godfrey:
Yes.
Billy Perry:
So you have to clear.
Bill Godfrey:
Somebody had to go in there.
Billy Perry:
Somebody had to clear that room before you could drag because you need to make sure Doofus McDooferson is not inside said room. And that's what I would do.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah.
Billy Perry:
And I'm sure Pete and I, if we were moving with an RTF, one of us is gonna step over you working on the guy. The other one, you know, would clear the other room and you're saying, would you do a one man entry? You betcha. Really effectively. And then I would go in and I would take said room and say, Bill, get you and Civilian McCivilian or survivor in here. And then we would hold that room and then move on from there.
Pete Kelting:
And Bill, you look at, I mean, since Columbine, we talk about that frequently in our deliveries, you know, where did the first active shooter training first start from and that original diamond formation was developed to be able to react to a 360 threat, right? And a 540 threat. And so you can move the, you know, members of that component to different, you know, formations to be able to deal with a hallway threat, opposing doors or you know, more than opposing doors in one intersection there. And just like Billy said, that we would step over you or you know, we'd give you clear directions of which way to move. Or if we felt that everything in front of us was still too hot for you to work at, we'd ask you to come this way with us.
You know, and there's a lot of different, obviously we're all well aware of the different tactical models now to address everything from East coast to West coast to all the different agencies out there that are trained that way. But that's the sole intention is to be able to respond quickly to react to those environments as we're moving through the footprint.
Billy Perry:
Correct.
Bill Godfrey:
So that makes complete sense. All right. So we've talked about approaches for both law enforcement and fire, EMS, in the vehicle, not in the vehicle. We've talked about the hallway movements. We've talked about getting in the room, getting clear of the door. So once you're gonna go in, commit and go in, get clear of the door and then set up.
What does it take to secure a room? We've got three or four injured in a room, three or four injured in the hallway. We want to take that room and make it our casualty collection point. What does it take to secure and hold that room to turn it into a warm zone.
Billy Perry:
One dude with a firearm.
Pete Kelting:
At a minimum.
Billy Perry:
Right. At a minimum. But that's what he's saying.
Pete Kelting:
Absolutely.
Billy Perry:
You're saying the minimum it would take.
Bill Godfrey:
Yes. Now, so you mentioned somebody needs to go in and address the room. Clip and make sure that there's no threats in the room.
Billy Perry:
Right.
Bill Godfrey:
We know we have at least one door, so we've got a post up on that door because we don't know what might come from the hallway.
Billy Perry:
If it's our RTF, if it's Pete and I, we're gonna take that room as a tandem. We're gonna get you in there with the casualties. We're gonna then set up security. Somebody's gonna be on the door holding the door.
Pete Kelting:
Is it defensible?
Billy Perry:
Our immediate action plan, like I'd be like, Pete, if something happens, I'm going, you're staying with them. He'd be like, yeah and medical's taken place. We're done, sim.
Pete Kelting:
So our room is defensible. We've made a decision it's defensible and the next thing we wanna make sure is that it's accessible. Can we get additional RTF, you know, resources in there and what would be the best way? And then we're probably even moving right past that is is you know, would that be next to an ambulance exchange point? You know, things like that.
Billy Perry:
Which hopefully it would be.
Bill Godfrey:
It would be. Yeah. So, and from a fire EMS perspective, I would add to the room, we also need a room that's big enough to be able to lay people out and treat them and get them organized.
Billy Perry:
Sure, sure.
Bill Godfrey:
You know, a closet may be defensible but it's not big enough to treat patients.
Billy Perry:
Right. And you know, you've moved a lot more people than I have, but it still ranks right up there with root canals and alimony and I don't wanna do it. And the least I have to move them the better. So I want to get in, I know, Pete and I have discussed this ad nauseum, I want a CCP that can also be an AEP. If I can get one that has an exterior entrance that you can drive a bus up to, that's a lottery winning day.
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. Great stuff. So moving right on to there. So let's talk about that next step. So we've secured the room, which is our casualty collection point now. It is a place where we're gonna take care of the injured, where we already have security, warm zone by definition. We now at some point are gonna need to get those injured onto the ambulances. We need an area to load the ambulances, our ambulance exchange point, which they may very well also be in the warm zone or at least warm zone adjacent. And so it's going to have to have some security of its own, which typically is not gonna be provided by the rescue task force security element. That's typically gonna be something the tactical would task another contact team to go do.
But let's assume that room, we look around and that room has an exit door, it has an emergency exit door that we can get out and get right to the parking lot. What are the kinds of things, switch gears, you're part of a contact team that's been told to go secure this ambulance exchange point. What are the kinds of things that you're looking for on the outside that the street cop needs to know about securing the ambulances, securing the ambulance exchange point?
Pete Kelting:
I mean, immediately when I step outside the building with the resources I've identified necessarily, or the contact team coming up, is that that immediate security right around where you're gonna be coming outta the room into the parking lot. One of the biggest things is, what is our elevated threat? What's our distant threat? What ground can we cover? And how many folks do we need to do that right then and there? So it's just a matter of fact of being able to make sure that that ambulance is gonna have an easy way in and an easy way out, and feel secured when they show up.
Billy Perry:
I think it depends. Is the person neutralized? Is the bad guy neutralized? Is he missing or is he barricaded somewhere? If he's barricaded somewhere, I want him way far away from where we're doing the AEP just to make sure he is not crawling through duct work, getting somewhere else. And I'm a bomb tech, you know, my last eight years I was a bomb technician with the sheriff's office. And I look at AEPs the same way I look at a bomb. I want distance and angles. I wanna have a lot of distance and angles away from my explosive device. And I want distance and angles from where I'm gonna put my ambulances if the bad guy's barricaded.
Bill Godfrey:
And from a fire and EMS perspective, the thing that I would offer to law enforcement is remember ambulances are big trucks. They will not handle off-road. They may look like it, but they will not.
Billy Perry:
They will not. They'll get stuck.
Bill Godfrey:
Even in grass or sodded areas, they will sink in and get stuck quite easily. And so you really cannot operate 'em off the road. And they are difficult to turn around. They're difficult to three point turnaround. So when you're looking up, when you're sizing up that area for the ambulance exchange point, try to figure out how are your ambulances gonna come in and how are they gonna get out? Preferably without having to turn around. If they do have to turn around, don't underestimate the amount of room that you're going to need, 'cause there a big truck with a crappy turning radius.
Billy Perry:
Yeah, an aircraft carrier has a tighter turn radius sometimes. That is brilliant, 'cause that is a point that people do not know that haven't done it, and we take it for granted. You are a hundred percent correct and they will bury it to an axle.
Bill Godfrey:
They will. And the last thing that I would say is if you're on that security team for the ambulance exchange point, keep that eye up for when the ambulances are coming and then give them hand signals. Give them that reassurance because it is a chaotic and confusing environment. And you may get a fairly vague location of where you're supposed to go to. But to look up and think, is this the right place? And see a cop that's looking at you and they've got their arm up waving at you to come here, you know, move to me, move to me, is very reassuring. And it goes to your speed thing.
Billy Perry:
It does.
Bill Godfrey:
Instead of just creeping through a parking lot.
Pete Kelting:
Wondering where you're supposed to land.
Bill Godfrey:
Wondering where you're supposed to go.
Billy Perry:
Right. Because generally, and I'm asking, who's generally driving the ambulance? I'm asking.
Bill Godfrey:
Of the crew? Typically it's the EMT, but not always.
Billy Perry:
Okay. Yeah. Is he a senior or a junior one?
Bill Godfrey:
Oh, it depends. It tends to be junior.
Billy Perry:
That's what I thought. So you're already dealing with a junior guy, right?
Bill Godfrey:
Yes.
Billy Perry:
So it is more reassuring to him to be letting him know that this is okay?
Bill Godfrey:
You betcha.
Billy Perry:
Because when he buries it over the axle, he doesn't get ribbed by that at the station, does he or anything?
Bill Godfrey:
Yeah. Well some places a little worse than that.
Pete Kelting:
And I'm gonna go back to communication. I mean, I know in our deliveries, in our simulation environment, we're able to throw out the red flags and so forth that we, you know, enjoy doing. But in, you know, in real world, just an accurate description of exactly what they're seeing on approach. Hey, it's, you know, the big double glass doors, the roll up door, there's a two tall palm trees right here that I'll be standing next to receiving you, some type of description that really gives them a comfortable landing zone.
Billy Perry:
And you're, you're not gonna be bringing them into a place that you would not stand out there.
Pete Kelting:
Right.
Bill Godfrey:
Exactly. Presumably you're already standing there.
Billy Perry:
I'm gonna be like, look for me, I'll wave my arms at you. I'll shine a flashlight. You know what I mean? I'm a firm believer in that.
Pete Kelting:
And boy, that really hammers home the importance of tactical triage and transport co-located by themselves, focused on the single hat missions together.
Billy Perry:
Fluffy.
Pete Kelting:
Fluffy.
Bill Godfrey:
Yes.
Pete Kelting:
To get those decisions done correctly, quickly, and accurately.
Bill Godfrey:
That three-headed dog that is three heads, but one body, executing the mission well.
Gentlemen, thank you very much. This was a spirited conversation. I picked up a couple things I didn't know. I liked it. That's exactly what I was hoping for. If you haven't liked and subscribe the podcast, please do so and share it with those that you work with. Shout out to our producer Carla Torres as always. And until next time, stay safe.